Talk:Sun Wukong

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Feel free to discussion about on this page! Tesla

DO NOT MODIFY THIS GOD'S ICONS!
Please do not overwrite any of Sun's icons when he is rereleased. Please simply give them new names. I have created a page for the old god at Sun Wukong (Original).

Opinion should be removed from Trivia Section
The section says that Sun Wukong was removed because his lore was inaccurate without: a citation from Hi-Rez to that effect, or any additional information to back up that opinion. The notion that Sun Wukong was not lore accurate is an opinion that was NOT shared by all SMITE players on the forums. The opinion that it wasn't is not an appropriate one for an online encyclopedia of the game. Hi-Rez's official reasoning at the time was that Sun Wukong was removed to receive a moveset revamp (which is reflected on older versions of Sun Wukong's page and Sun Wukong (Original). Lore was NOT a reason given my Hi-Rez at the time of the removal.

The bottom line is that the current Sun Wukong entry is less encyclopedic and MORE opinionated than the entry that it replaced in every way.

I have spoken with the editor/admin about this (check my talk page), but I'm not sure I have any recourse to correct this inaccuracy other than this post. This page does a disservice to the accuracy of the site if left as is. I respect the editor and his work for SMITEwiki a tremendous amount, but argue that his reasoning for this change is wholly without merit. The change should be reverted at the first opportunity should a new editing team take control of the site. -- Link006 (talk) 4:13 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * That is not an oppinion (not sure how you took it as an opinion), it was announced by several people from Hi-Rez (Bart, Erez, etc.) on the streams, and I'm almost sure they must have said something on Reddit or Twitter. I'm not sure how you missed it, though not everyone watches their streams. (I have to since they sometimes reveal extra info about current/future patches)
 * Now that that point is covered, is there any reasons why we should change the page? Beyond adding missinformation like "Sun Wukong used to be one of the 5 free gods", which would make new people think this wukong was free, when the one that was turned into HunBatz was. (Not everyone will know that the first wukong existed, not even with the wiki (sadly not everyone reads the trivias)).--Malvodion (talk) 07:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


 * As mentioned before, stating an opinion without any type of citation is inappropriate in this format. A lore makeover was NOT the primary reason that Hi-Rez claimed the change was being made to address.  I believe it is editorializing to pin one possible reason for a change above all the others Hi-Rez mentioned.  Again, the original page for Sun Wukong (still available in the History) CLEARLY stated that the change was made for a moveset revamp, NOT a lore "do over."  I will not argue that Hi-Rez mentioned that there were some who felt the original form of the god was not accurate, but they NEVER stated that was the only reason the change was made (which is what the current page infers, an inappropriate thing for a neutral encyclopedia to do).  Furthermore the notion that the god was inaccurate to lore was not universally held by devs OR by players on the old official forums.


 * Saying that Sun Wukong used to be one of the 5 free gods is completely accurate and provides critical, useful, and interesting historical context for new players of the game for a number of reasons. It encourages further investigation to other pages of the wiki (which is good for a great number of reasons I don't need to expand on here) and stimulates thought on the changes that Hi-Rez made to the god and why were they made (or even if they were necessary).  Milk Chocolate M&M's were not always called "Milk Chocolate".  They used to be "Plain."  The official wikipedia notes this, but NOT the reason why (because there is no acceptable citation).  I think basing SMITEwiki decisions on how the "big boys" do it is a good policy and I think the old Trivia section best reflects accuracy AND useful information.


 * The assertion that the "misinformation" would confuse SMITE fans I believe is unfounded for two reasons. First, the information is a note made in the Trivia and in the middle of the post - a nugget that curious fans will find, not an article lead with bold font and rainbow font calling attention to it.  Secondly, the Trivia (as amended) clearly stated the revamp that the god received in this current patch and discussed the original god's removal from the game and reintroduction.  You're right that not everybody will know that Sun Wukong received a revamp - that is what the wiki is for and why it is important that these things are cataloged correctly for future players.  Just like WoW players like to look back at 40 man raids, SMITE players may be looking back at this one day.


 * I believe it is far more confusing to attempt to dissociate the gods from each other. Sun Wukong (Original) is just as much Sun Wukong as the current form of the god is.  They are one and the same.  Different forms, abilities, and skillsets?  Certainly, but there was nothing in the article that would have confused the average reader or led them to believe that was the case.  Their history is shared and still should be reflected.  To use a real world example, the United States of America is still the same country that formed with 13 original colonies hundreds of years ago.  Is the form of the country, its strengths, shapes, social norms, and economy the same?  Clearly not, but they are still one and the same.  To use a different example, AOL is still the same company that introduced "You Got Mail!" as America Online from the 90's, even though AOL is mostly just a holding company now and doesn't even offer dial-up service.  The history of that company is catalogued appropriately throughout all its forms on ONE wiki page on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL) and the same is certainly true of the USA (there are dozens of examples - I used those because they were clear and familiar to me and therefore, easier to explain).  Play-doh is another great example - it's current form as a children's toy in NO WAY resembles its original purpose as a wallpaper cleaner!  You can bet the official Wikipedia entry for Play-doh clearly documents this and in NO way tries to dissociate the important, complex, and interesting relationship between the two products, though they have very little in common currently.  It is the difference between the two that makes the relationship between the two so interesting and important to document.


 * Finally, the page says that Sun Wukong received a major revamp in June of 2013. That is incorrect and very confusing.  Based on the way that it was written, the player would wonder how the god could simultaneously be removed from the game and receive a revamp.  The most accurate description is that of the removed Trivia entry: (Paraphrasing) -  Sun Wukong was created as one of the original five gods.  In June of 2013, he was removed to receive a move set overhaul (if you'd like to mention or incorporate something about the lore controversy, I'd be happy to work on incorporating that in a neutral way).  Hun Batz was created to take Sun's place in the roster and was assigned Sun's original moveset.  Sun was reintroduced in October of 2013 with new visuals, a new moveset, and a new voice over.  This description is:  accurate, less confusing, provides interesting and relevant context, and avoids editorializing.


 * I realize that one god from one MOBA is far from as big or important as those wikipedia entries I cite above, but I think that is the level that this site ought to strive for. -- Link006 (talk) 1:09 31 October 2013 (UTC)