Help talk:Guidelines

Creating Guidelines
I feel like we really should stop and take a look at creating some guidelines and figure out how the wiki and articles should look. User:Malvodion is doing a lot of update work, which is awesome, but before too much more is done I think we should double check on what work needs to be done and what we want the pages to look like. So this discussion should be devoted to the latter. We can talk about general formatting and style here, while talk on specific article types, ie gods, should probably have their own section so that we can keep the discussion organized. --Sigil Baram (talk) 07:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I keep getting carried away. And you are right, I should wait before I do any other "revamps" to any section until we a all agree on it. While I wait, do you mind if I continue fixing things like duplicated elements)? I just finished fixing the re-redirection(or in this case re-re-re-redirection) links, relinking some, deleting one("ability", because nothing was linking to it and actives aren't called abilities anymore. I keept "Ability Items List" in case something linked to it.). I'm pretty sure no one else wants to do it.--Malvodion (talk) 07:54, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * As for duplicate items, I only deleted a dupe of Qin's essence (not qin's blade) icon and page that were not linked anywhere, and the page was literally just the icon (the original is also an icon, but I'm keeping it.). I want to remove any other pages like those.--Malvodion (talk) 07:58, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure removing duplicate pages and unneeded redirects would be fine, since that isn't really a guidelines issue. Just make sure to check "what links here". Sometimes it is better to fix nested redirects so that they all point directly to the end page, rather than deleting them.


 * For this we should come up with a list of things that we need to figure out. I'll put up a few that I can think of. I'll also message RedArremer and Zojima and see if they have anything they'd like to comment on. --Sigil Baram (talk) 08:21, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Black Tables
I have no particular care on this one, I'd just like to see them put into Common.css if we want to use them so that it is less inline style code all over the place. --Sigil Baram (talk) 08:23, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You mean the black tables that are on top of the skill/skin tables? I think that looks fantastic, I'm all for it. -- RedArremer (talk) 19:59, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Well I'm mostly curious about if we want to make black the standard color for all wikitables, which I personally don't think would fit the skin, or if we want to make a separate class so that we can say which tables are blue and which are black? For the tables that are currently a mix, if we want them to stay that way, I could add a CSS class that could be used on the row to change all the cells in that row, or it could be used on a specific cell to change just those cells. I could probably give all 3 the same name for ease of use. I figured the black tables would end up staying, it was more a question of in what form should they be so they can be consistent. They should also probably be part of the style guidelines for specific articles, such as the first row of headings on the god skin tables as per the way Malvodion has been doing them.


 * To me seems separating them seems like the best solution since black on all tables doesn't match the skin but a little black looks good in some cases. If we do make black table a separate class, then I could also change the current wikitable definition to not have those gold borders, or any other color tweaks that people think would make them more appealing, unless they are fine they way they are. --Sigil Baram (talk) 20:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it's better if they stay separated. I only used black for headers in some pages for contrast. I also used black on the Item lists icon slots, so that they could "blend" with the table, but that's it. I think "background-color: black" is enough for this.--Malvodion (talk) 20:34, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The reason I hesitate for saying to go ahead and use "background-color: black;" everywhere is that if the skin of the wiki did ever changes substantially and black was no longer suitable, then we'd spend a lot of time fixing it in various places and would keep finding pages we forgot to fix months afterwards (I've been there before). It is a lot safer to add a class to Common.css, then the majority of the wiki's skin is kept in two places, Common.css and Hydra.css, rather than having lots of identical tweaks each individual page. It also allows you to do a whole row as black all at once rather than adding it to each cell.


 * I did a quick mockup on User:Sigilbaram/sandbox. The one that is a full table might have different color headings if we want. --Sigil Baram (talk) 18:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah yeah. That command will come in handy. Do you want me to update the tables that use black bg now? It'll only take me a few mins.--Malvodion (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I saw big red numbers on the lists and was confused then saw what you were doing, heh. Yeah, The main part that might need to be tweaked is the one where the whole table is black should probably have some variation of color if it gets used somewhere, but mostly we only have tables with black headers on the first line. I could actually change that so that when the whole table is prettytable then it only changes the headers rather than changing all the cells. --Sigil Baram (talk) 19:41, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Nononono, It's perfect the way it is right now: there is s few tables that need to be all dark (like the Junglers list:header+icon). It actually makes things easier.--Malvodion (talk) 19:47, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It just feels like an overly large block of black, but if if works then I'll leave it. Do we use sortable tables anywhere, though? The arrows on those will need to be replaced if they are used with a black header. --Sigil Baram (talk) 22:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

God page format
I think a lot of the changes Malvodion has been doing so far with style look good. I'm not sure how many people would come here for the lore section, though, so having that at the top might not be the best. I'd also like to know what we want to do with the quote section(s), since those have been removed for the moment on a lot of page. Also, are there any updates needed on god infobox? There is also the idea of using User:Zojima1668/Sandbox/Template:AbilityBox as popups on a skill bar similar to Item build. --Sigil Baram (talk) 08:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * About Lore: I placed the Lore on the top because the text looks a bit more organized inbetween the 3 boxes (gods list, god infobox, skills), also most wikis (for example Dota2's) also have it on the top. (And there is people who likes to read character's lores and/or mythology, so having it on the top might appeal to them.). But if you people don't like it we can move it somewhere else.
 * About Quotes: I was planning to make a subpage for character replies for each god and link them to their pages. It's be fantastic if we could get the voicefiles and media players for it like other wiki sites do, so that it could be more that just a list. If we can't do that then I'd say we should probably re-add the quotes to the god pages.
 * About god infobox: I think the God infoboxes Tagging system is too limited. Right now it only lets you tag gods as Ranged/Melee and a single role. It need support to specify: 1) God's Attack Range 2) Main Stat/Attribute 3)God's Role 4)(optional)God's Second Role (Example: Apollo: Ranged Physical Carry. The old guan yu: Melee Magical Support Tank). And we also need to have more that just Fighter: Carries and Assassins are not the same thing.
 * About abilities: The problem with that is that people won't be able to c&p info from the popups, It would probably also conflict with mobile view and it would also make the god pages look even more empty. Which reminds me:
 * Should we add changelogs to the god pages? Only a handful of gods have them, and it would be pretty hard to find all of the changes for each god. I'm not sure if it'd be worth the effort.--Malvodion (talk) 08:59, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If it is common for MOBA wikis to put the lore at the top then it is probably fine, I just assumed it probably wasn't the most commonly sought information.


 * I can look into getting us a media player and such for the sound files. If someone knows what format those are in I can see if we can get a player that plays those files without needing to convert them.


 * The god template is forever old. It was made before I inherited the wiki from the previous manager. I think I see what you mean though. I'll take a look at it some more. It is pretty late tonight and I'll probably be busy during the day tomorrow, but I'll try to get to it tomorrow night or monday.


 * As far as the issue with abilities not being copyable, we could put them on sub-pages and have the bar be clickable, if that would make it more acceptable. I don't think that copy and pasting is needed so often that the extra page loads would be an issue, but I could be wrong about that.--Sigil Baram (talk) 09:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The sound files are wav. -- RedArremer (talk) 19:58, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Odd. Are you looking at older versions of the files maybe? After you said wav I was going to look into bulk converting them, since wav doesn't seem to be supported by any mediawiki extensions, but all the sounds files I've looked at are ogg, including the god voices. --22:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I requested an Ogg player for the time being. If it turns out that I just haven't noticed the wav files you saw, then we can figure out what to do with those, if they are sounds we want on the wiki. --Sigil Baram (talk) 18:09, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My bad, I confused Smite's files with another game's. -- RedArremer (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I started adding change logs/patch history for gods/items a while back, but I had to stop due to work/school/moving. If we do end up doing this, the scroll box template would be helpful to limit the length of those pages. --Zojima (talk) 21:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't really worry about page length overly much. If it does seem like an issue we can put the patch history on a subpage and link to it, or use a collapsible box. Personally I find that inline scroll boxes like that are difficult to page through because the scroll input ends up moving the browser window when you get to the bottom and stuff like that, but then I'm weird and use my keyboard for almost everything when the rest of the world uses the mouse... --Sigil Baram (talk) 22:09, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, God infobox new and Freya/sandbox. It currently doesn't do much with the type/role/pros, but the parameters should work as is without anything special on the article end as soon as we get an extention I put in a request for that will help in parsing them. I know the numbers are red links. I'll fix those before we use it, they are part of the SemanticMediaWiki extension and will let us list gods with their stats and such. The rest of the style can be tweaked though. I wanted to try making the headers be a different color from the numbers and such, so let me know what you think.


 * Also, also, the ogg extension has been added to the wiki: See mw:Extension:OggHandler for usage. It is pretty similar to using images. --Sigil Baram (talk) 22:24, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I had seen it a few days ago but I forgot to talk about it: I like it, it's so much better that the one we have. But the God's Title shouldn't be a link, and I think it'd be useful if the God types and roles were also links to lists of gods of the same kind. As soon as it's finished I'll add them to the god pages, along with their stats.


 * About the .ogg extension: How does it work? does it make a play bar or is it just a tiny "play" icon? or you can set it to be either?--Malvodion (talk) 23:27, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why they don't include a screenshot or something. It makes a button with a play icon and when you click it that button is replaced with a little media player with some basic controls. It is used on diablo wiki if you want to see it on a page: [Adria's Journal]. There are some other display modes though and we can experiment. I can also look into using CSS to make the buttons something that goes with the skin more if they seem out of place. --Sigil Baram (talk) 00:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh also, forgot this part. The god's title, like the numbers, isn't a normal link. They are all currently undefined SMW Properties, and undefined properties default to the type "Page" which displays as a link. For the Types and stuff like that I was waiting for the Semantic Forms extension, which comes with the  parser function, which should really be available in mediawiki core, rather than being in an in an extension that comes with a lot of extra stuff we probably won't use. --Sigil Baram (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That extension, Semantic Forms, was installed at some point, so I finished up the types and roles. They now link to pages. I also defined all those undefined properties and added the categorization stuff. I think now it is just whatever you guys want that I have forgotten or as far as appearance and such. Oh price. I'll ask Red if he has ever found the favor and gem icons so that we can use those in the template. I looked for them some, but haven't had any luck yet. --Sigil Baram (talk) 19:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Overall I think the layouts have been very good. I've gone through and made some very small wording changes and people have stuck with them for the new gods so I'm glad people seem to like it better. I'm also VERY pleased with the way we are cataloging the history of the game with Old Sun Wukong and by saving the old models and cards for gods like Ra and Odin. I'd definitely like that to continue. --Link006

Sound Files
Since we already got the .ogg extention, we should talk about What soundsfiles we want/need in the wiki (beyond the regular god quotes):
 * I think it' be neat if we got the regular VGS voicelines for that page.
 * Beyond the god quotes, we should also add the Announcer quotes somewhere.
 * Optional but, if it's not much trouble, I think that adding the god voicepacks along with the God responses in their pages would be nice too.
 * Optional but, having a section for ingame soundtrack would be nice, it could bring more attention to the wiki for those looking for the soundtrack.

(I don't have the means nor knowledge of how to get these files so I don't know if this is possible or not.)


 * The sound files are accessible, just like the images and such. RedArremer will probably mass upload them once we know what we want. I could help with that if he wants, but I don't want to get in his way if he has some sort of system set up. Most of those sound good, but I might be a little leery of the soundtrack part, just because I don't want us to seem like a file sharing site. --Sigil Baram (talk) 01:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I can upload all of them, yeah, and I also would appreciate some help, though coordination between the people who are going to upload would be good in that case. As for the soundtrack, I don't believe it's as easily accessible in the files as the VFX are; I know the background music of the maps have some files, but the lobby music doesn't iirc, at least not the differently themed lobby themes they release with new gods to fit with the pantheon (e.g. the current, Chinese one, or the one with the bagpipes they had for Norse gods, etc.). When it comes to the music, I also would first say we should contact Hi-Rez if we're even allowed to share those files; don't think we'd get in trouble, but it still would be better. Might even be wise for the voice files. -- RedArremer (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, we should contact them. Don't think they'd have any problems with the god voicefiles, because they are obviously already "public" and most wikis have no problems with it, but I'm not so sure about the soundtrack since it hasn't been officially released, and I'm very sure they wouldn't want us to add things like unreleased voicepacks (I know some of them are already ingame, just unavailable.).--Malvodion (talk) 13:40, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think they'll take any issue with us uploading even unreleased voice packs, but music always is a bit iffy. -- RedArremer (talk) 08:30, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Since we(you, because I don't actually know how you'd contact them..) of asking HiRez for things: I think that, while we are at it, we should ask for: Info about Gold/XP mechanics & values (This one is important, we need specific values about how much gold/xp you gain from everything), Buildings and minion/monsters stats & how they evolve/devolve(also very important.) Voice actors(optional and trivial, but it'd be nice to have that info for the wiki, since you can't find it anywhere.). And maybe they also have a reliable list of the MOTD? The one we have is extremly outdated.
 * Also unrelated but, I think it'd be nice to have the minimaps for each mode and add them to their page, and if we can get a Hi-res picture of the map it'd be fantastic. (there is No pictures of the current map, there is only the overview pic made by daemonmachine of the "old" conquest map, and we can't use that for more that one reason.)--Malvodion (talk) 14:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The mini map would be in the client files somewhere I would think. I've found the tower/phoenix/minotaur icons, but no luck on the mini map itself yet. --Sigil Baram (talk) 18:21, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Soooo.. Any news on this?--Malvodion (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

New God Classifications/Roles
Since the last update the roles where changes to: Hunter, Assassin, Warrior, Tank, Mage, Support. And only one role for each god. We don't know if this will remain or not, but we should add it anyways. BUT, we should also keep the tags we already have just in case.--Malvodion (talk) 15:45, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This is kind of funny considering I set up that whole system for making multiple roles work better... But I'll tweak that new template so it accepts the new roles. It should be all set to switch over once we make sure it isn't missing anything and if the layout is ok with you guys. --Sigil Baram (talk) 16:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I had a special moment. It works as is. It doesn't do any sort of checking, so if a new role comes out you can start using it without having to track down the template and stuff. --Sigil Baram (talk) 17:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * So the template is finished? If it is I'll start putting it on the gods' pages.--Malvodion (talk) 17:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

New Background
I was thinking that maybe we should update the background. Either clean up the current one (I was messing with PS and made This: higher res, recolored with the current colors scheme of Zeus, etc. don't add it though, It's not finished, and imgur ruins the quality), or add a completly new one. What's your opinion on this?--Malvodion (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

New Item classifications
In this patch the store was rearranged into "offensive" "defensive" and "utility" items, only showing items available to that god (only physical items for physical gods, magical for magicals.). The question is: How should we display them in the wiki? We got two options:
 * Make Three pages with, "Offensive Items" "Defensive Items" "Utility Items", with two big sections on each, one for the physical side and one for the magical side.
 * Make Two pages with "Physical Items" "Magical Items", with three big sectons on each, one for Offensive, one for Defensive and one for Utility.

What's your oppinion on this matter?--Malvodion (talk) 16:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)